Steve Tobias ([info]nakedmen) wrote,
@ 2009-06-11 13:07:00
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anger.
For the past two years or so when someone insulted me, fucked with me, or whatever, I'd do what a rational person would do and just say nothing back, use it to practice patience. The reason is, you always have it in your hands to end the conflict right there, it always just takes a tiny bit of effort and it doesn't escalate into a fight.

Lately I've toyed with the idea of semi-responding back, because I want people to know how I feel, and I want them to know the results of what they've said or done to me, or whatever. Basically it's for communication purposes, and because relating to people is extremely tough if you don't tell them how you feel, and ultimately if you say nothing you get in this repressive sort of frame of mind. Actually at my core I am an asshole, I nitpick and analyze and super criticize, that's what I have to start with. So I let it flow, it's already there so I just guide the direction it flows in, don't repress/push-it-away it but don't let it get out of control.

Lately I am definitely seeing some issues with this, more fights with people, more bitterness and perfectionist attitude, only focusing on the flaws of people and not having the patience to deal with imperfections or whatnot. It seems more natural to brush people off or not be disturbed about having quarrels, of flat out "not liking" people, etc. Which is difficult to do when you have the practice of trying to develop compassion in your mind, which I still meditate on.

So I don't know, life is easier but it's not. It's easier to get into fights but I don't like it. It's hard to find a balance. When I practice too much Buddhist stuff it seems like I alienate myself from others, but when I don't then it ends up happening anyway. I am a weird person, and I can practice molding myself for others, but other times no. What you see is what you get; a paranoid, fascist, vulgar sense of humor oddball.

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[info]ocha_no_hanashi
2009-06-11 11:42 pm UTC (link)
When I practice too much Buddhist stuff it seems like I alienate myself from others, but when I don't then it ends up happening anyway. I am a weird person, and I can practice molding myself for others, but other times no. What you see is what you get; a paranoid, fascist, vulgar sense of humor oddball.

Yeah, I get the same feeling. After taking vows and following additional precepts (the Bodhisattva precepts), I'm really unable to do much of what others would do. No bars, no dancing, no BBQs, no sleeping around, no more music, no more video games, etc... and it dawned on me seeing movies is probably a waste of time too. I'm pretty close to living the vinaya right now. Not having sex either.

I just work, study, meditate, read, write...

I can definitely see the value in alienating myself from most people. That might sound harsh, but from a Buddhist perspective -- is hanging out with the average samsara goers really that beneficial? Unless you're attempting to aid them in some manner, chilling and being social is really a waste of time and much of it is counter-productive. Like dating, getting laid, drinking booze ... it is fun, but fun things which only increase desire and take one away from the path are ultimately counter productive to the path. That's why monks are expected to have such a disciplined lifestyle.

On the other hand, the bliss of proper meditation and the calm abiding that results from it makes the stoic lifestyle kind of appealing, though that is only the means and not the end.

Anyway.

My Bodhisattva primary vow number nine is not getting angry. If I get pissy, that's one thing, but actual anger is forbidden. If I get really pissed off I break my precept.

Wowzers eh.

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[info]nakedmen
2009-06-12 01:44 pm UTC (link)
Thanks, was sort of hoping you'd respond.

I don't know. I see more benefit to hanging around people, dealing with crap, and learning from it, while also maintaining relationships and creating an ability to socialize. My friends are great and they teach me things. When I go into hermit mode sometimes it creates serious problems for me, like semi autism, paranoia, or whatever, and it's hard to break out of. My social skills are lacking so I need to be around people or else my ship sinks. When the ship sinks it also means I can't help them and it breaks bodhicitta. At least it's better for me to do this until I learn that it's pointless, then quitting it will be easier.

I have three of the five precepts, then bodhisattva vows, and tantric vows. I used to read up on them alot but now I am too busy watching my mind or adjusting my habits to really literally watch each vow. The 18th vow not to give up bodhicitta (maybe you were referring to) I work on by focusing on the three aspects of tantra (renunciation, bodhicitta, emptiness), which is primarily what I'm mindful of. So if I'm pissed off at people I see it as that is my own delusion, and I apply methods to have right view/bodhicitta again.

I've never found it useful for instance to see things like anger as being forbidden, because once anger has arisen it actually doesn't help to say it's forbidden, it helps to apply the antidote such as doing analytical meditation. But it helps more to prevent it before it arises by having right view, primarily. When we hear stuff about Hinaya being the "lesser vehicle" that is how I relate to things like this particular topic, because avoiding emotions or forbidding them isn't very skillful in my experience. I have read from I think Lama Zopa Rinpoche that Hinaya avoids emotions, Mahayana makes some use of them, Tantra transforms them for beneficial use. So my goal is the last two at the moment. At least since I'm an emotional person : )

Thanks.

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[info]ocha_no_hanashi
2009-06-12 05:48 pm UTC (link)
I see more benefit to hanging around people, dealing with crap, and learning from it, while also maintaining relationships and creating an ability to socialize.


I think Vimalakirti might be a useful character to reference here:


His wealth was inexhaustible for the purpose of sustaining the poor and the helpless. He observed a pure morality in order to protect the immoral. He maintained tolerance and self-control in order to reconcile beings who were angry, cruel, violent, and brutal. He blazed with energy in order to inspire people who were lazy. He maintained concentration, mindfulness, and meditation in order to sustain the mentally troubled. He attained decisive wisdom in order to sustain the foolish.

He wore the white clothes of the layman, yet lived impeccably like a religious devotee. He lived at home, but remained aloof from the realm of desire, the realm of pure matter, and the immaterial realm. He had a son, a wife, and female attendants, yet always maintained continence. He appeared to be surrounded by servants, yet lived in solitude. He appeared to be adorned with ornaments, yet always was endowed with the auspicious signs and marks. He seemed to eat and drink, yet always took nourishment from the taste of meditation. He made his appearance at the fields of sports and in the casinos, but his aim was always to mature those people who were attached to games and gambling. He visited the fashionable heterodox teachers, yet always kept unswerving loyalty to the Buddha. He understood the mundane and transcendental sciences and esoteric practices, yet always took pleasure in the delights of the Dharma. He mixed in all crowds, yet was respected as foremost of all.

In order to be in harmony with people, he associated with elders, with those of middle age, and with the young, yet always spoke in harmony with the Dharma. He engaged in all sorts of businesses, yet had no interest in profit or possessions. To train living beings, he would appear at crossroads and on street corners, and to protect them he participated in government. To turn people away from the Hinayana and to engage them in the Mahayana, he appeared among listeners and teachers of the Dharma. To develop children, he visited all the schools. To demonstrate the evils of desire, he even entered the brothels. To establish drunkards in correct mindfulness, he entered all the cabarets.



So, living as a layman, but doing it in a spiritually benefiting manner, both for oneself and others, is possible, but on the other hand I think one has to have already be at a certain point before it is really possible.

Like, going to a gambling den and utilizing liberative techniques -- that takes one hell of a teacher.


When I go into hermit mode sometimes it creates serious problems for me, like semi autism, paranoia, or whatever, and it's hard to break out of.


Why not hang around with the sangha if possible? Most temples are happy to accommodate people who want to spend time there. Cleaning, maintaining the altar, helping with fundraising, etc... this is why the sangha is the optimal environment, at least usually, as it is good people.

My Bodhisattva vows are the Chinese ones, so they're a bit different from the Tibetan ones, but the gist I think is more or less the same.

I know the value of tantric practices, but to be honest I've always wondered if someone shouldn't have a very solid base in the agamma literature, Hinayana practices and already having attained calm abiding in meditation before pursuing such activities. Tantra, at least as I understand it, requires the coupling of doctrine and method, and neither can be lacking. Like for example at my temple there are people wanting to get all these empowerments because they're so powerful, but they can't explain what the eightfold noble path is, or tell you what the six perfections are. If you don't even have the basics down, why pursue the higher teachings?

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[info]ocha_no_hanashi
2009-06-12 05:48 pm UTC (link)


I've never found it useful for instance to see things like anger as being forbidden

Anger is a powerful poison -- so, like intentionally swallowing some poison and then drinking the antidote, it makes no sense to put it into your system even for training purposes. Anger reinforces egotistical concepts and like alcohol makes you do foolish things. I think the worst though is that when you're really angry you seem to forget the value of holding precepts, being patient, etc... you just say, "GOD DAMNIT! FUCKING NONSENSE BULLSHIT MOTHER FUCKERS GO TO HELL!" and don't seem to care about the consequences. Well, that's at least my experience.

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[info]nakedmen
2009-06-12 06:22 pm UTC (link)
Well anger is a complicated thing. Just knowing that it's poison is easy; no one likes to be angry. I just don't think "forbidding" one's self to get angry actually deals with the anger; it doesn't really prevent it or control it. I don't think becoming angry in itself is worth doing, but I think it's worth being in difficult/challenging situations where anger may arise, because you develop insight which prevents anger from occurring in those situations later on. As long as one has the right methods to deal with it and maintains awareness.

I find sometimes that just the mental faculties of analyzing or investigating, which are very useful, can result in impatience or anger, so at least in my case it's not so easy. Just work with what's there and mold it.

Combining sutra with tantra is necessary and very emphasized from what I've read, at least by Gelug lamas. It's just that the focus changes when you have different practices. I'll focus on the six perfections often, or renunciation/bodhicitta/emptiness, or specific visualizations, or whatever throughout my day. Hardly ever focus on meditation on the breath or other things I used to think of when I was Theravada. Not that they should be forgotten but you just use different strategies I guess.

I'd like to start hanging around a sangha. I hate to say that my hermit-ness carries over with my practice, and as I result usually I read, meditate, or listen to teachings instead of actually going to Buddhist centers. Something I have to work on. Thanks.

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[info]bbloobuddha
2009-06-14 10:39 am UTC (link)
I think that anger is a very natural emotion and it's important to allow yourself the experience so that it can be managed properly in the future.

In time and with practice you can choose to not be angry over things that would have upset you in the past, without having to suppress your emotions.

That's my opinion, atleast.

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